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A mild awakening, England's Turn?

David Goodhart, 26 - 06 - 2008
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The British left has never been comfortable with nationalism, yet in an age of globalisation it is more important than ever to achieve the social solidarity and redistribution the left wants. New post-ethnic forms of national identity are needed to resist global pressures towards a minimalist market state. Speaking to a Rowntree seminar, David Goodhart editor of Prospect, argued that the possibility of the break up of Britain in the near future should prompt the English to think seriously about who they are - and who they would like to become.

 

POST POST-NATIONALISM

For reasons of history and national temperament the British (especially the English) have worn their national citizenship lightly. Such insouciance is now positively embraced by leftists, post-nationalists and even some free-marketeers, but it did not derive from a generous or progressive sentiment. If anything, on the contrary, it was the result of a missionary-imperial idea of Britain in which it was not necessary to draw clear lines around the political community. As Krishan Kumar has explained in his The Making of English National Identity such fuzziness also helped to veil the overwhelming dominance of the English within the British state.

This fuzziness is now an obstacle to the good society. At a time of mass immigration, European integration, the rise of identity politics and so on, we need clearer markers for a post-ethnic national citizenship that is also open to the world. We need, in other words, a post post-nationalism. The shape of the nation state is constantly evolving but it is still central to most of the things that liberals want, from democratic accountability to redistribution of wealth and generous welfare. But it needs help, especially from the left, which after all wants the state to make more, not fewer, demands of citizens—whether paying higher taxes or being more active citizens. I do not, of course, advocate a return to Edwardian jingoism, but with the erosion of so many other collective identities a minimum national sense of “being in this together” is still necessary to avoid long-term ethnic balkanisation and a small, low-tax state.

I do not think self-interest, even of the enlightened kind, is sufficient to generate the solidarity required for a thriving public realm. The political battle is now on between the citizenship state and a market state in which citizens have a purely instrumental relationship to both the state and each other.

Unfortunately, from the 1960s onwards, Britain did not develop a modern, postimperial language of national citizenship and identity that was comfortable with the idea of equal citizenship—regardless of race or background. The right did not fully embrace equality (and after Enoch Powell, the liberal right just wanted to avoid the subject). The left did embrace equality, but thought it meant burying the nation state; it did not accept that even if all people on the planet are in some sense morally equal, we still have a far greater political and social commitment to our fellow citizens, of all classes and ethnicities.

Moreover, a “rights” culture does not make the nation superfluous. The rights that we claim are also demands that we make on each other—especially if those rights have a price tag attached—and that presupposes a political community, and invariably therefore a nation of some kind.

Modern democratic politics is based on the idea of fellow citizen favouritism—that is why we spend 25 times more on the NHS each year than on development aid. This does not mean we have no moral obligations to citizens of other countries, (in Britain’s case especially our fellow EU members and the countries that were once part of the empire). But such obligations have to co-exist with the primary reality of national citizenship. Without fellow-citizen favouritism there would be no point to the nation state, and without it we would lose most of the great achievements of modern liberalism. There is a “middle way” between universalism and ethnic nationalism, and other traditions such as the French and the Canadian often express it more comfortably than we do.

National citizenship needs modernisation and clarification in at least three ways. First, spelling out what Lord Goldsmith in his much derided report on citizenship calls “the package of rights and responsibilities which demonstrate the tie between a person and a country.” Most of these already exist, but they are not written down in one place anywhere—and we can no longer assume that everyone intuitively understands them.

Second, we need to clarify the dividing line between citizens and non-citizens. At its most basic, this means controlling our borders and who crosses them (and counting them properly). It also means making new citizens more aware of what it is they are joining—“we” are not just a random collection of individuals. This is where the current Labour government has made most progress with its citizenship ceremonies and tests, and its idea of staged, “earned” citizenship.

Third, in an era of greater mobility we need a more overt assumption that the interests of British citizens, of all colours and creeds, must come first. Of course citizens often have different or conflicting interests — sorting out those conflicts peacefully is one of the things that politics is about. And these days we grant, as we should, many rights to non-citizens, including, of course, other EU citizens. But why on earth in the NHS doctors recruitment fiasco did we give no preference to British citizens, or even to people coming out of British medical schools?

One cannot, of course, legislate for a sense of belonging. And it takes time for new citizens to absorb a country’s norms and unspoken codes. State-sponsored patriotic rituals are not always the answer, for either new or old citizens, especially in a country as individualist and sceptical as Britain. But the ceremonies for new citizens, derided when introduced in 2002, have proved popular. If they go with the grain, top-down ideas can have popular appeal.

People ask, reasonably enough, what difference is a national day going to make to those disaffected young Muslims whose primary commitment is to the umma, or to east Europeans who have a purely financial motive for being here? A national day will make little difference on its own. But if in the 1960s and 1970s Britain had projected a clearer and more confident idea of itself, and if it had made a clearer “offer” to new citizens about what rights they could expect from their new country and what it expected from them, perhaps minority identity politics would have had less of a pull.

As it was a kind of laissez-faire multi-culturalism became the norm.

People can feel or express national commitments in many different ways. And if people on the left find the idea of the nation distasteful, then the simple answer is for them to give it another name: society, or just plain citizenship. To dismiss Lord Goldsmith’s belated attempt to modernise national citizenship as “ a parochial side-show,” as David Beetham did in his paper last month, is complacent.

BUT WHICH NATION?

Britain has been an extremely successful multinational state. Personally, I would be sad to see it go. Moreover, if it ain’t broke…Surely the English are big enough to live with some small representational and public spending biases in favour of the small nations of the United Kindgdom. What exactly are English interests? And how are they being suppressed? (And one could ask the same of Scotland.)

The paradox of Britain is that although it was substantially made by the English they did not – unlike the other British nations – define their own role in it. England dissolved itself into Britain, and so to this day has only minimal political/institutional identity. There is indeed no formal English political community, one of the reasons why sport has become such a rallying point for expressions of English identity.

If one accepts the case for a continuing need for overarching national identities and some minimum sense of “being in this together” as a defence against the market state then one must take the symbols and institutions of nationhood seriously. The danger for the English is that they will be left holding on to the symbols and institutions of Britain long after it has been cleared out of any emotional or political meaning. And if the Scots (and possibly the Welsh too) abandon the union, leaving the English holding a hollowed out shell, it is more likely that a new English nationalism will be born in a resentful mood.

So, if we are to follow this thought experiment, England should prepare itself for the abandonment of Britain and give some thought to its own political future. Of course the break-up of Britain is still not inevitable. We are all familiar with the argument that many of the things which inspired the creation of Britain and then held it together – empire, Protestantism, the labour movement, a single economic space – are either no longer relevant or would continue happily even without the existence of Britain. That is not a decisive argument for ending the union, but if the main non-English party to the union no longer sees the point of it – or rather if it thinks it can continue to enjoy the perceived benefits without the perceived disbenefits - then the union has no future.

And it is now all too easy to imagine how the end could come. A referendum in 2010 or 2011 after a successful period of SNP government, and soon after the Tories have returned with a big majority to Westminster (having increased their representation in Scotland by only a couple of seats) – could create the political atmosphere in which a vote for independence becomes not just possible but likely. Scots will be told that nothing much will change—same queen, same currency, no physical border—and their self-governing powers will merely seamlessly extend to foreign policy, tax and macro-economics. (Although as Robert Hazell points out in the latest Prospect (subscription only), it is probable that the Scots would have to vote twice – once on the principle of independence and then again on the deal that is secured.)

There is a problem here for people like me who do not want the union dissolved but on the other hand have no fear of an “England alone” and think it would be sensible to prepare for that eventuality. The problem is this: any preparation that seeks more political representation for England within Britain as it is today is bound to hasten the Scots to the exit. I am no expert on the various constitutional arguments but English votes for English laws (which is still Tory policy) would require an English parliament or its equivalent – which in turn would make the UK parliament increasingly residual and thus erode the political bond between England and Scotland.

The cleanest way of dealing with the representational imbalance at Westminster is the method applied in Northern Ireland—simply cutting the number of Scottish MPs. But what could be more inflammatory to the Scots – they would in effect be told because you now run your own health service you will have less say over declaring war. There might be some way through this constitutional thicket – perhaps it’s a suitable subject for a Royal Commission – but it doesn’t look promising.

So let us assume that Scotland is off –look on the bright side. England can at last re-unite its cultural and political identities. All that nonsense about Britain being a civic concept and England an ethnic one is swept away – as soon as England becomes a political community it is by definition civic as well as ethnic. And England is, of course, far more multi-ethnic than Scotland or Wales, and would remain one of the most diverse countries in Europe even if it lost those two countries. There is no obvious economic disadvantage to England from a break-up of the union— indeed even taking account of losing what is left of the oil there would be probably be a small independence dividend. In the past 50 years England has steamed ahead of Scotland in terms of population growth and economic weight, and there is no reason to think that independence for Scotland would stop that.

Independence would be a severe shock to one organization—the Labour Party, which has come to rely on “Celtic Britain” as a social democratic bulwark against Anglo-Thatcherism. And there is no doubt that the English middle class – broadly defined – is culturally quite distinct from its Scottish equivalent – it is more individualistic, more private sector, perhaps more enterprising – indeed it is this cultural divide which seems to be one of the factors driving the independence movement. But Labour in England would just have to try harder to persuade this economically dynamic group to see its interests tied to a thriving public realm – it has more or less succeeded in doing that for the past three elections.

There might be broader, albeit rather intangible, benefits for the left too. Perhaps the final dismantling of the British imperial state would release the hubris that causes British politicians to try to punch so far above their weight on the international stage. Of course there can be good left-wing reasons for punching above one’s weight in the field of development and so on. But with the Iraq war still so fresh in people’s minds we know that punching above one’s weight has its destructive side too.

And with Scotland gone – and perhaps Wales not far behind – the north-south divide within England might finally get the attention it deserves. The north east and the north west ought to benefit substantially. (As a new state would be emerging it might also be an excuse to establish the new capital outside the old imperial capital of London.)

Because of the huge scale differences between England and Scotland—separation is likely to cause more trauma and disruption north of the border than south (there are only one or two institutions that would be significantly affected south of the border– the BBC and the British army to name two). Indeed some people argue that most English people expressed their English national identity through British symbols, basically seeing these as continuous with the English past. Hence the seamless sliding between the two, at least until recently—much to the chagrin of the Scots and Welsh. So Englishness might just reorient itself without much dislocation – and the small historical jolt that it would receive from the departing Scots could even turn out to be a benign one.

This article appears on the Prospect website.

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britologywatch said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 17:51

I agree with you, David, that there is absolutely nothing to fear from a break up of the Union and a new nation-state of England (or possibly, England and Wales). In fact, I think most English people would / will be delighted when this happened / happens - far from being resentful towards the Scots and Welsh, as you suggest at one point.

You do, however, seem to think this will most likely arise only as a result of decisions taken by the Scots. Admittedly, this will probably be the catalyst. But if we can see it coming from afar, shouldn't we start to plan for it proactively and start working out a constitution for the new state, including whether the Welsh and Cornish want to be part of it? It seems to me that, because you at heart regret that a parting of the ways betweeen Scotland and England will happen, you don't want to plan for the future after it actually does take place, in case that amounts to willing the divorce into existence in the manner of a self-fulfilling prophecy. But if we just drift into an England after Britain, we could end up with the worst of both worlds: a rump-UK, without Scotland, but with all the flaws of our present political system.

We should see the break up of the UK as the best gift horse for radical constitutional reform we've been offered in centuries. Let's not look it in the mouth!

Not logged in said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 18:28

As an anglophone Welshman with some Scottish ancestry who lives in England and has lived and worked in other Commonwealth countries, the apparently inexorable drift, or sleepwalk to break-up of the UK infuriates and depresses me in equal measure. I was not allowed a vote on the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly. I was not consulted about their powers and have no say in their doings.
It would seem that they can decide unilaterally to leave me as a foreigner in a country of my choosing that was not supposed to be any different from my ancestral home.
There are more Scots in England than there are north of the border. I guess the same probably applies to the Welsh.
Are we to be treated as foreigners in our own land? The whole nationalist movement in both countries is a fraud and rides on the backs of the ignorant and chauvinist stay-at-home minority.

Jack Edwards

britologywatch said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 19:27

I sympathise with you, Jack - as an English nationalist, born and brought up in England, with a Welsh mother and half-Irish father! That's one of the reasons why I think it shouldn't be down to the Scots alone to determine the future of everyone else in the UK in a referendum on their independence. A single new constitutional settlement for all the nations currently included in the UK should be put to a referendum of all UK citizens, e.g. the question could be: "Do you agree with the proposed new constitutional arrangements for all the countries that are presently part of the United Kingdom: independence for Scotland, and federal parliaments for England, Wales and Northern Ireland within a continuing United Kingdom?" - or whatever constitutional settlement is worked out.

I think that, unless there were a clear majority in all four countries for the deal that had been negotiated, it should not go through. However, if Scotland voted for independence but the other countries rejected what was on offer for them, Scotland should be allowed to go ahead and a new deal would have to be sorted out for the rest of us. At least, this way, everyone with mixed national-UK allegiances would be consulted on a single settlement for all the nations.

Not logged in said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 21:52

The trouble is Labour and the Lib Dems believe that a united England and the United Kingdom are mutually exclusive and are therefore determined to snuff out England.

Personally I don't see why the English should suffer any disadvantage, but assuming that we "are big enough to live with some small representational and public spending biases in favour of the small nations of the United Kindgdom" I don't see why this should extend to Britishness being rammed down the throats of our schoolchildren while the Scots and Welsh may revel in their own nationhood. This is just one example of social engineering at the expense of English identity.

The biases are not that small either. England has no direct representation in the UK, the EU nor indeed the world, at the political level.

I have asked this many times and never been given an answer. Supposing England is replaced by feeble regions and Scotland and Wales only then decide to go independent where does that leave the English? It leaves them stateless and powerless, which is of course the objective.

I have grown to despise and resent the United Kingdom over the last 11 years, and I was not a big fan of it 20 years before that, as I saw the English as the whipping boy for the whining "Celts".

There is no sound reason for England to remain in the UK and there hasn't been for 301 years.

Stephen Gash

Not logged in said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 22:34

"And there is no doubt that the English middle class – broadly defined – is culturally quite distinct from its Scottish equivalent – it is more individualistic, more private sector, perhaps more enterprising – indeed it is this cultural divide which seems to be one of the factors driving the independence movement."

Well, I doubt that very much. As nationalists, you're obviously going to pounce on the whole English=Middle Class, Scottish=Working Class thing, and hold onto it for all eternity. Never mind if it's true or not.

It sounds like you've just made up an imagined Scottish middle class based on common factoids about Scotland.

Not logged in said:

Fri, 2008-06-27 00:11

It is so typical that you think the English made 'Britain', my god, the arrogance and ignorance of that is just breathless. It is the kind of arrogance that has me (a Scot) gasping for the 'exit' button. A few facts:
1. The 'United Kingdom' came about by the King of Scotland becoming King of England in 1603. All British monarchs since are related to the Stewart line. Are you seriously going to deny this Scottish input was other than a signal moment in the genesis of Britain? Or was this all accidental? There are TWO Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in these isles, (possibly three) and this was the calculated product of 300 years of off-on policy.
2. It was the Scots who were the catalyst for the most pivotal moment in 'English', (I would prefer to say, 'British') political history - the civil war against Charles I, and the limitations on the power of the executive that had been inclucated in Calvinist theology for over 100 years aided by George Buchanan's political thinking. The contribution the Scots made politically, militarily and intellectually to these outcomes were at least as great as the English. Charles I could not fight two parliaments, one in Edinburgh and a government in London, at the same time, and this Scottish revolt broke the deadlock and gave the English parliamentarians the opportunity. Otherwise the Star Chamber could have continued indefinitely. George Buchanan was as major a thinker on the powers of the executive as Hobbes or Locke, and preceded them.
3. After the Union the Scots embraced imperial opportunities enthusiastically (being blocked in England by anti-Scottish sentiment) and basically built the Empire. A disproportionate number of Scots were colonial governors and we were also the shock troops of the Empire.
I could go on and on ad nauseum, but you catch my drift.
You are confusing size with input. But the relative size of our populations was once 1:6 whereas now it is more like 1:12. This is all because of centralisation of wealth and government since the 18th century, and latterly, immigration.
After years of being a Nat, I now don't want the British Union to end; I want a fully functional federal British Isles (including Ireland) that respects and co-operates with each other and stands against Euro-imperialism whilst maintaining sovereignty for our respective nations. We have regional security, energy, cultural and economic interests in common; far more with each other than we have with Brussels. I was encouraged by the Irish vote.
Europe would work much better if instead of the Franco-German empire writ large, it recognised that there were regional zones and respected these. A Europe that recognised regional diversity, a Europe made up of blocs, would make more sense.

avtar singh said:

Fri, 2008-06-27 07:39

i think the best solution to the "west lothian" question is to devolve all the powers that scotland has received down to the english counties or, even better, direct democracy :) 

padav said:

Fri, 2008-06-27 13:49

An interesting viewpoint on this complex issue but I am confused by many of
the conclusions reached.

The author openly declares that the English role within the UK is ill
defined at best;

Quote:
The paradox of Britain is that although it was substantially made by the English they did not – unlike the other British nations – define their own role in it. England dissolved
itself into Britain, and so to this day has only minimal political/institutional identity. There is indeed no formal English political community, one of the reasons why sport has
become such a rallying point for expressions of English
identity

Having acknowledged this key aspect of cultural reality in 21st century Britain I am therefore puzzled by his routine assumption that any reshaping of the United Kingdom political/constitutional map would necessarily proceed on the basis of a traditional “four nations” template.

Indeed, David Goodhart admits to a sense of personal sadness at the constitutional impasse Britain finds itself in and that “the break-up of Britain is still not inevitable”, yet he offers no other credible geo-political models for further consideration?

It is true that the characteristics of groupings perceived as “outsiders” are seminal in identity formation and in this instance that “others” role is defined in terms of those geographical elements of the UK outside England but why should that factor in isolation necessarily result in increased levels of affinity for English residents?

For me a much more powerful influence in this equation is Britain’s inherently centralised structure, which remains a perennially negative feature of the UK constitutional landscape, despite the transfer of limited political influence to devolved institutions of accountable governance in Belfast, Edinburgh, Cardiff and London itself.

The only (half-hearted?) suggestion offered by the author as a potential solution to the UK’s ongoing dilemma is a Royal Commission. Why is no consideration given to the prospect of a Citizens’ Convention; a vehicle that could provide a credible vehicle for developing a meaningful, i.e. no predetermined outcomes and no taboo topics, engagement with the
audience that really matters in this instance; the British people?

In the closing section of his article David Goodhart does at least partially acknowledge in tangential fashion the malign impact of economic disparity and social inequality within England itself but his comments are limited to rather predictable North-South divide references and defined specifically within the context of a future exclusively all-England political model.

If the United Kingdom does endure, despite its current difficulties, albeit as a much looser federal arrangement, concluded between partners of relative equality, this model would seem (to this individual at least) to offer many other positive alternative scenarios?

 

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Wyrdtimes said:

Sun, 2008-06-29 11:55

It’s great to read something positive about Englishness coming from Mr Goodhart. Although I disagree with a lot that he’s saying.

"a minimum national sense of "being in this together" is still necessary to avoid long-term ethnic balkanisation and a small, low-tax state".

Avoiding "ethnic balkanisation" would be good - have a word with some of the immigrants about it. The indigenous population are not responsible for all the problems of integration faced by immigrants. The onus is on them to fit in, and not the other way around. Freedom of speech for instance - is non negotiable - and anyone’s gods are fair game.

And why is it necessary to avoid a low tax state? Personally I think that is exactly what we should be aiming for. That doesn't necessarily mean cut services - I’d like to see alternatives to paying cash to the state - as they only waste it once they have it.

It seems liberals want "redistribution of wealth and generous welfare".
As far as I’m concerned; fair redistribution of wealth can only happen slowly and through better education and increased opportunities. Generous welfare robs people of the necessity to strive and improve themselves and as far as I can tell is perpetuating not removing the underclasses. That may suit the political and some of the under classes but it’s doing no-one in between any favours at all.

I've had a couple of extended periods of unemployment and the state helped me out.. So I am all for a safety net but not an extended lifestyle choice. I also object to people having 8 kids and expecting someone else to pay for them. Hello! Limited resources - use some contraception.

About England. Mr Goodhart asks...

"Britain has been an extremely successful multinational state. Personally, I would be sad to see it go. Moreover, if it ain’t broke...Surely the English are big enough to live with some small representational and public spending biases in favour of the small nations of the United Kindgdom. What exactly are English interests? And how are they being suppressed? (And one could ask the same of Scotland.)"

I’d be like to see the UK replaced with a council of the Isles - one where England gets to sit at the table.

If it ain’t broke? But it is broke - and new labour broke it with the way they tackled devolution.

Devolution has left England ruled by a man making laws that don't even apply to his own constituents. No mandate Brown has to bleat "Britain" and "our Country" from when he wakes up to when the mercy of sleep takes him. England. He dare not speak its name.

Then the state weighs our lives on crooked scales. There may be a case for slightly more funding per person in remote areas but no way is a Scottish life worth so much more than an English or Welsh one. The Barnett Formula is an insult to 50 million English people.

Then there's how inequitable funding manifests; better drug availability, lower or no prescription charges, smaller classroom sizes, care for the elderly etc. I'd not deny these benefits to the Scots or Welsh or Irish - good on them! The English should have the same too - but there's no-one talking for us.

England is big. Big enough that it doesn’t have to put up with the British Governments warped sense of justice and its delusions of global significance.

We need an English Parliament that speaks for us. But let’s not be half hearted about it - let’s reform parliament while we're at it. Make parliament and the civil service and the military smaller and more flexible - lets make waste history starting at the top - and for gods sake lets get rid of the political parties and vote for people instead.

Like he says an EP "would make the UK parliament increasingly residual and thus erode the political bond between England and Scotland."

Let's say farewell to those political bonds then, and say bon voyage. When the political bonds are broken we will still be neighbours and before long we will find a new level of friendship and co-operation between the ex-home nations.

Who knows how far it could spread?

Home rule for England.

David Goodhart said:

Mon, 2008-06-30 13:41

To briefly defend myself against two misunderstandings - both from
Anons. Anon of last Thursday accuses me of stereotyping England as
middle class and Scotland as working class - but what I actually did
was to compare the two countries middle classes, with the English being
more private sector and individualist and the Scottish (middle class)
being more professional/statist. That is a heroic generalisation, of
course, and like almost all statements in this debate it is partly
based on stereotypes - but it is a different stereotype to the one I
was accused of by Anon (Thurs). 

Anon (Friday) is determined to
discover English arrogance and so has me claiming that Britain was made
by the English. What I actually said is that it was "substantially"
made by the English - which is perfectly compatible with the well-known
disproportionate contribution of the Scots to empire etc - but the
sheer difference in size and scale make it almost mathematically
impossible for the English not to have played the most "substantial"
role in creating and sustaining the union. Scotland played an important
part in the civil war - but I'm not sure it was quite as substantial as
Anon (Friday) claims, and in any case it is not called the English
civil war for nothing, it took place after all before the political
union (and I thought it was Stuart not Stewart, or is that English
spelling!) Still, I like the idea of an Anglo-Celtic bloc in the
European Union.

Not logged in said:

Mon, 2008-06-30 23:00

Thank you for your courteous reply. May I apologise if I 'blew' off there but this is just the kind of specious 'sizeist' argument that sets us Scots off. I'm afraid we will just have to honourably disagree: mine's is a qualitative argument which I maintain and that I think stands as well as your quantitative. A nation is not a mere locality but has a far richer and more intricate and developed texture which is why we punched well above our weight. The size has got nothing to do with it but the complexity and agility of the organism.

The idea of the Anglo-Celtic bloc I think more and more is the solution to our European problems, but alas the idea is not mine but Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun's. He was an important Scottish political thinker and opponent of the 1707 union who was also with Monmouth's rebellion, returning after the Whig Revolution. After Monmouth's unsuccessful attempt, he fled to the continent and offered his sword to the 'Queen of Hungary' fighting with the Austrians at the siege of Vienna, 1683, against the ever-expanding Caliphate. Surely one of the most signal moments in European history. So a good chap all round and valiant champion of liberty.

The Anglo-Celtic bloc was a project that was proceding along very nicely in these isles until Edward I came along with his unaccountable aggression towards a friendly cousinly nation and set back this project by 700 years. He could have won by friendship what was only achieved by 400 years of war.

Fletcher in the 1680s was for a British (Whig) union but envisaged it as a federal one (as you do, if you're Scottish, Welsh or Irish) but when the eventual 'incorporating' union proposal came up saw that as establishing a permanent minority status for Scotland within 'Britain' with no local autonomy which meant political slavery for the Scots (even if they gained commercial freedom in return). Thus he came to a very far-sighted analysis of a 'Europe of the regions' in which there would be balance and harmonious working which would prevent tyranny by any dominant part. An ardent European (who wouldn't be, after Vienna), he saw the British Isles as being one such federal bloc. He argued staunchly against centralisation saying that it mitigated against both liberty and local economic vitality. He saw London as a bloated parasite leaching the life out of the entire achipelago, as much an oppressor of its own people as those of the rest of these isles.

With petrol heading towards £2.40 a gallon I fancy this decentralised Albion, with a Council of the Isles, could come back into fashion.

padav said:

Tue, 2008-07-01 11:41

Like the contributor above I also fancy a decentralised European future but
what sets us damned Northerners off is the routine assumption that any looser federal arrangement here must be based on a four (home?) nations template - why?

England as a single entity represents 50 of the current 60 million UK
inhabitants and as such would fatally unbalance any constitutional settlement in which it would undoubtedly play a hegemonic role and furthermore would contribute nothing for the English peripheral regions in addressing the malign influence exerted by an entrenched culture of political centralization – how precisely would an English Parliament based in London, reserving powers to itself, as all elected institutions naturally tend to incline,
facilitate a fundamental dispersal of political influence?

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Not logged in said:

Wed, 2008-07-02 22:40

@ P. Davidson

"England as a single entity represents 50 of the current 60 million UK inhabitants and as such would fatally unbalance any constitutional settlement in which it would undoubtedly play a hegemonic role and furthermore would contribute nothing for the English peripheral regions."

Each time I read comments like this, I'm truly perplexed. What I find amazing is that the British, whom build a few federations (United States, Canada, Australia, India, etc.) can't seem to reconcile this notion within their own country. Why is this?

The UK, with 60m people is a large country. And when a country becomes so large, it is better to decentralize and federalize. An English parliament should NOT undermine a UK parliament because the roles and responsibilities should be clearly stated in a written constitution. For example, in the United States, California is the most populous state with 36m people (and growing!) and its economy accounts for 20% of the US's GDP. However, because of the way the government is set up and the divisions of powers between the federal and state governments, California impacts is in par (more or less) with Arizona, a state with 2m people or New Hampshire, with >1m people. In addition, state governor and the US president rarely interact, unless a natural disaster hits an area. As a matter of fact, in elections, small states are more important than large one. And change in the US starts in the regions and moves to the centre (as oppose to the UK, where change starts in the centre and moves downwards to the regions).

In the case of the UK, the constitution should clearly state what the federal government is responsible for (e.g., matters that jointly or collectively affect one or more home countries). The role of the UK parliament may diminish, but it would not make it any less important.

If the UK decides to federalize, I propose killing London as the capital (the city is so powerful as a media, financial, legal, cultural hub, etc. that if it lost the government it would hardly matter) and picking a new capital for England (Manchester? Bristol? Bolton?) and a brand-new UK capital .. but this time somewhere cool like Fife, Inverness, Newcastle, Liverpool, or Derry.

padav said:

Thu, 2008-07-03 23:55

When I read comments like those above I am also truly
perplexed and amazed by the ease with which the (mathematical) elephant in the room is conveniently ignored. It would seem that the simple yet overwhelming logic of numbers escapes many contributors to this debate.

There is a more widespread consensus relating to the marginalization of UK peripheries and I would argue that the (still relatively recent in historical terms) advent of devolved institutions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was driven in large part by recognition of persistent economic and social disparity in these peripheral territories.

We can debate the extent to which devolved institutions have achieved success on behalf of their respective inhabitants but there seems little doubt to me that the strategy of power dispersal has delivered, on balance, a positive experience for those same audiences. There is also some merit in the argument advanced by English Nationalists that the pendulum of redistribution has now swung too far the other way, certainly in respect of Scotland.

English Nationalists argue (passionately) that establishing an English Parliament would lead to radical dispersal of political power across
England (traditional counties is usually mentioned in this context) but
what evidence do they have to demonstrate this belief? Every other newly
created institution of democratic political power has always tended to reserve powers to itself so why should an English Parliament, particularly one poplulated by the very same political parties we currently berate on a daily basis, act in a completely different manner? Logic tells me that it won't.
Hanging a different sign over the door of the current UK Parliament is not
going to reform the entrenched culture of centralism within the psyche
of political élites. It is this very real concern driving my advocacy of robust
regionalism within England.

I am a Unionist in so much as I believe that the intimate nature of the bonds existing between all of the people inhabiting these islands has been forged from the history of many shared values, challenges, adversities and triumphs over the centuries. We may express dissent about the relative merits of each element within this complex relationship but to pretend that many hundreds of years of history can be discarded within a single generation allowing Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England to pursue their own entirely independent pathways in the world is, well to put it bluntly, just barmy! The relationship between all parts of the UK continues to endure,
at least for the next 50-100 years, and possibly a lot longer.

Given the existence of that overarching rationale it makes sense to arrive
at a sustainable constitutional settlement likely to deliver equitable
solutions to all parts of the UK and withing this formal arrangement I firmly believe arrangement I believe that a single all-England political institution will only frustrate the acheivment of that bargain for the English peripheries.

Reference is made in the critical remark above to California, which constitutes 36 from a total 300 million – approximately 12%. England
constitutes more than 80% of the total UK population – maybe there is a significant qualitative difference here?

Nobody is arguing for an artificial arrangement in which each element of any proposed federal UK structure is strictly equal in all respects; that is a fantasy outside the bounds of rational debate but there is an undeniable logic in an argument that sraws attention to the fact that the traditional county of Lancashire (which incorporates the modern conurbations of
Greater Manchester and Merseyside) combined with Cheshire boasts a population and GDP not dissimilar to that of Scotland. Why should the people of such a North-West Region, which displays clear historical and economic legitimacy, be denied the potential to participate in and benefit from the function of a vibrant, robust, semi-autonomous, self financing
geo-political unit within a looser UK federal structure?

If I was ever given an option to choose (referendum?) between such a future Regional Parliament (and I mean Parliament, not an Assembly) based in North-West England and an all-England affair (which would be London based; I have absolutely no doubt about that) each exhibiting similar
competencies and commensurate revenue raising powers, I know which one I would choose – it’s a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. I also believe that an overwhelming majority of Lancashire/Cheshire residents would share this conviction, once fully acquainted with the facts – of course a real problem exists in persuading political élites to present such a clear dichotomy.

Finally, even assuming the loosening of ties between England and other historical UK elements, there is also another not insignificant constitutional obstacle to the creation of an all-England political entity; London itself, which in common with the other devolved territories has been successful in
evolving its own destiny and identity during the (relatively) short duration
of its existence.

The practicalities of dealing with this additional (albeit smaller) barrier and the utterly implausable proposals routinely advanced by English Nationalists demonstrates the relative rationality of my own position.

@Anonymous - Wed, 2008-07-02 23:40
"If the UK decides to federalize, I propose killing London as the capital (the city is so powerful as a media, financial, legal, cultural hub, etc. that if it lost the government it would hardly matter and picking a new capital for England
(Manchester? Bristol? Bolton?) and a brand-new UK capital .. but this time
somewhere cool like Fife, Inverness, Newcastle, Liverpool or Derry."

 

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

P.S. Yes Gareth, there is an overriding European context to this debate but let's not try to cloud the issue under discussion here too much

 

Wyrdtimes said:

Fri, 2008-07-04 11:31

When I see comments like Peter Davidson's last effort I feel a wave of despair crash over me.

It's not just that I know I am going to have to spend an hour reading, then re-reading his deliberately impenetrable language. It's also because the world he paints, his regions are like a vision of purgatory. It's grey to read about and it would be even greyer to live.

PD’s premature certainty knows no bounds. He knows that an EP would fail to help the English periphery. He knows it can’t work.  And then there’s warped logic to back his arguments...

Peter Davidson wrote:
English Nationalists argue (passionately) that establishing an English Parliament would lead to radical dispersal of political power across England (traditional counties is usually mentioned in this context) but what evidence do they have to demonstrate this belief?

I'm pretty sure that humans haven't invented a time machine yet. So to ask nationalists for evidence from a future firmly still in the maybe state is a tad harsh. Especially when he has no evidence to back up his own pessimism.

Peter Davidson wrote:
Every other newlycreated institution of democratic political power has always tended to reserve powers to itself so why should an English Parliament, particularly one poplulated by the very same political parties we currently berate on a daily basis, act in a completely different manner? Logic tells me that it won't.

Other examples constitute their own evidence - not ours. Whilst case studies are interesting we really shouldn't let them bind our future.

Peter’s limited imagination crops his world view and his vision of the future abruptly at the end of his nose.

England has a proud history of doing things our own way - we CAN create a fairer, free England. Bring on the new Magna Carta.

I can't be bothered to go through the whole thing line by line - I'd lose the will to live, but then sheer arrogance of his "overarching rationale" needs to be addressed.

Peter Davidson wrote:
I am a Unionist in so much as I believe that the intimate nature of the bonds existing between all of the people inhabiting these islands has been forged from the history of many shared values, challenges, adversities and triumphs over the centuries. We may express dissent about the relative merits of each element within this complex relationship but to pretend that many hundreds of years of history can be discarded within a single generation allowing Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England to pursue their own entirely independent pathways in the world is, well to put it bluntly, just barmy! The relationship between all parts of the UK continues to endure, at least for the next 50-100 years, and possibly a lot longer.

The big fallacy peddling on the spot there is that independence means the end of good relations between the home nations. As I see it the opposite is much more likely. The home nations will see each other in a new light of mutual respect and will actually get on much better.

The arrogance is that his "overarching rationale" is this - if you have an alternative view - you are barmy.

I believe that the home nations can go their own ways and prosper. I believe that relations will be better after independence than they are now. I believe that an English Parliament will make life better in for everyone in England regardless of whether their location is currently considered peripheral (by some) or not. I believe that the peace dividend of finally laying the empire to rest will actually equate to beating swords into ploughshares.

Bloody hell is that a man in a white coat I see before me?

padav said:

Fri, 2008-07-04 12:47

Wyrd Times

I see you're still ignoring the mathematical elephant in the room. Instead of simply having a go at me on a personal level perhaps it might be more constructive to address some of relevant issues I have raised.

For example I ask for evidence about the potential for dispersal of meaningful power under any future English Parliament and you try to turn my perfectly reaonsable concerns on their head. So I'll try again - how will an English Parliament lead to radical dispersal of power within England?

Traditional counties are frequently mentioned in this context.

What kind of policy fields would be slated for transfer to the the counties?

How would their newly won powers be funded?

How would an English Parliament wind the clock back and rebuild the traditional English County network in the first place?

How would an English Parliament reconcile the vast differentials in economies of scale between large counties like Yorkshire or Lancashire and their minnow counterparts, such as Rutland? We have already seen how that county is just too small to function as a self-sustaining entity.

Finally how would an English Parliament deal with the issue of an existing Regional power bloc within its midst; namely the GLA and all that it represents?

These are all reasonable questions and yet you seem to want to persist with personal attacks - no wonder you despair of my contributions if you are fixated with any individual holding a diametrically opposite view to your own.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Not logged in said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 04:32

The GLA was not advertised as a stand alone regional assembly at the referendum and nor is it. Can it set its own university fees or have free for all like scotland and wales, run the NHS or bring in free prescriptions?no.
How is it Scottish MP's including the SNP voted on the crossrail bill? Back to the drawing board Peter.

padav said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 12:36

Anonymous, Sun 2008-07-06 05:32 - aren't you engaging in a rather petty game of semantics? You understand perfectly well what I mean. The GLA exists and the geo-political rationale it symbolises seems to be thriving?

Perhaps the limited scope of the GLA's competencies reflects the inherently centralised nature of United Kingdom constitutional discourse rather than the aspirations of ordinary Londoners?

I concur with your sentiment regarding the participation of Scottish MP's in voting on the Crossrail issue. I could at this point berate the role of Whitehall in cancelling the expansion of public transport in Greater Manchester and other provincial cities across England, whilst simultaneously channelling public funds into the Crossrail project for London but that might be viewed as mere parsimony on my part.

I also agree with your parting remark; back to the drawing board indeed but I stand by my advocacy of real dispersal of political power within England and my contention that an all-England political body will never deliver this.

The silence, in terms of meaningful responses to my rational concerns, is rather instructive?

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Wyrdtimes said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 18:52

Don't get your premature certainties up Peter.

Peter Davidson" wrote:
I see you're still ignoring the mathematical elephant in the room.

Elephant? What elephant is that then? Is it a grey one?

Seriously though, I can't see any significant set of numbers in any of your posts in this thread. Would you be so kind as to put the numbers down so I can see what you mean? Feel free to quote yourself.

Peter Davidson" wrote:
again - how will an English Parliament lead to radical dispersal of power within England?

To be honest I don't know - it would be a task for the English parliament. Personally I'd like to see more decisions made by referenda - local and national on a variety of issues. I also think that aboloshing political parties and having MPs that either voted according to their conscience or better still voted in accordance to their constituents desires would take power much closer to the people.

Peter Davidson wrote:
What kind of policy fields would be slated for transfer to the the counties?

For English MPs/people to decide not me - if they wanted the county system back then it would be a question of returning powers.

Peter Davidson wrote:
How would their newly won powers be funded?

I'm no expert but I would imagine that most funding would come through a local tax system of some kind. Where necessary this could be supplemented with strategic funding from central government. Different areas can have different needs so funding per person from central government should be variable but not to the extent of the Barnett Formula.

As I've said before (and you've never countered this point) an all England government, with English taxes to spend on England would have considerably more resources to distribute. As a consequence, funding could be more generous per head across the whole of England than is the case at the moment.

Peter Davidson wrote:
How would an English Parliament wind the clock back and rebuild the traditional English County network in the first place?

First an EP would have to establish whether that's what the people actually wanted or not. I know - ask the English - what a novelty.

If it was what they wanted then rebuilding the traditional English county network would be done the same way as the dismantling - but in reverse.  If a thing can be changed one way via a legitimate process - then it can be changed back, modified or whatever. Via the same process.

Peter Davidson wrote:
Finally how would an English Parliament deal with the issue of an existing Regional power bloc within its midst; namely the GLA and all that it represents?

Power blocks can be dismantled. It could be split up into smaller chunks. It could be a special case. Or we could lease London to China for 99 years. As regional issues affect all England I suggest putting it to the all English vote.

Peter Davidson wrote:
These are all reasonable questions and yet you seem to want to persist with personal attacks - no wonder you despair of my contributions if you are fixated with any individual holding a diametrically opposite view to your own.

Awwww... I wasn't having a go at you on a personal level. It's your negativity, your writing, your hellish regional vision and your perma-certainty I have a problem with not you.

padav said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 20:41

Quote:
Wyrdtimes: “Seriously though, I can't see any significant set of numbers in any of your posts in this thread. Would you be so kind as to put the numbers down so I can see what you mean?” Peter Davidson: "Reference is made in the critical remark above to California, which constitutes 36 from a total of 300 million – approximately 12%. England constitutes more than 80% of the total UK population – maybe there is a
significant qualitative difference here?"

You seem to avoid the overwhelming (and totally objective) logic of mathematics when it doesn't fit with your argument?

Quote:
Peter Davidson:"how will an English Parliament lead to
radical dispersal of power within England?" Wyrd Times: "To be honest I don't know - it would be a task for the English parliament."

Quote:
Peter Davidson:"How would an English Parliament wind
the clock back and rebuild the traditional English County
network in the first place?" Wyrdtimes:"First an EP would have to establish whether that's what the people actually wanted or not. I know - ask the English - what a novelty."

Quote:
Peter Davidson:"Finally how would an English Parliament
deal with the issue of an existing Regional power bloc within its midst; namely the GLA and all that it represents?" Wyrdtimes"Power blocks can be dismantled. It could be
split up into smaller chunks. It could be a special case."

There seems to be a common thread in your responses; the English Parliament deciding everything of substance with people on a more local level putting up with diktat from above.

What if people on a more local level decide that they want greater control over their own local affairs? Seems to me that the EP is handing down pre-decided wisdom from above - sounds familiar doesn't it?

What if the people of London or other established unitary authorities decide they don't want to be part of your English dream? Seems as though they will have to lump it, just like now?

Of course the mechanism for achieving this form of centralised control will be exactly the same as that used now by its current UK equivalent - control of the central exchequer - he who pays the piper calls the tune!

You haven't assuaged any of my concerns - in fact all you have done is reinforce them!

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Wyrdtimes said:

Mon, 2008-07-07 13:17

Oh I know I'm not going to move the unmoveable Peter. Your mind is made up and that's that.

But about that elephant. I must say it's considerably smaller than I expected. Loxodonta Vegrandis if I'm not mistaken.

Peter Davidson wrote:
Reference is made in the critical remark above to California, which constitutes 36 from a total of 300 million - approximately 12%. England constitutes more than 80% of the total UK population - maybe there is a
significant qualitative difference here?"

Peter Davidson wrote:
You seem to avoid the overwhelming (and totally objective) logic of mathematics when it doesn't fit with your argument?

Not only does your statistic not fit with my argument it doesn’t fit with THE argument.

Your totally overwhelming and objective figure still has absolutely no bearing on the situation here in England now or in the future.

England's future is not bound by what's happened in California or anywhere else.

Peter Davidson wrote:
There seems to be a common thread in your responses; the English Parliament deciding everything of substance with people on a more local level putting up with diktat from above.

Yes there's a common theme. The English (and no-one else) should decide what form of government is best for England. The English (and no-one else) should decide law for England. And the English (and no-one else) should decide how English taxes are spent on England.

It's not "diktat from above" if everyone gets a say on the laws that apply to everyone. See below.

Peter Davidson wrote:
What if people on a more local level decide that they want greater control over their own local affairs? Seems to me that the EP is handing down pre-decided wisdom from above - sounds familiar doesn't it?

I'm all for people having greater control over their own local affairs - I suggest referenda from the council level up. Council, county/region, nation. Allowing voters to vote directly on laws for all three tiers.

I believe small government is best so the minimum at every level would be the ideal.

Peter Davidson wrote:
What if the people of London or other established unitary authorities decide they don't want to be part of your English dream? Seems as though they will have to lump it, just like now?

That's a tricky one. Personally I think that most people in London know that it's London, England - and that they are in fact English themselves. I think Londoners and people in other unitary authorities would be convinced to vote for an all England solution.

Not only will English independence bring democracy closer to the people but English tax for England will also bring a much better fiscal deal too meaning better services and opportunities for all.

If the Londoners voted en mass against an EP but the majority outside London voted for it then I guess England would need a new capital.

Anyway, how about your vision Peter... if you'd be so kind.

1. Are your regions fully self funding and autonomous?

2. Are your regions sub-subdivided? Into how many layers. Is there a regional capital?

3. Where does the EU fit in, if at all?

4. Would you go for an England only referendum? Regional government,UK government or English government?

5. If English taxes were spent exclusively on England do you agree that English people would end up with more spent on them per person than is the situation now?

Thanks in advance.

padav said:

Mon, 2008-07-07 16:47

Wyrdtimes

It wasn't me that raised the question relating to the size of California in relation to the total USA population but another contributor implying that different States in the USA have widely differing population sizes and therefore the differential between England and the rest of the UK would not present a problem - I was rebuting that argument by drawing attention to the fact that there is a massive difference between 12% and over 80%

It is that latter figure (50 million out of total UK population of 60 million) and the unavoidable imbalance it presents that the English Nationalist community conveniently overlooks.

For example I have also pointed out elsewhere in this thread that the traditional county of Lancashire (this includes both Greater Manchester and Merseyside) together with Cheshire, which functions largely as a commuter belt for those two North West England agglomerations, boasts a combined GDP and population not disimilar to Scotland.

By way of quick answers to your queries:

1. As much as is reasonably practical. Healthcare, Education, Law & Order, Housing, Intra-Regional Transport, Culture & Tourism (off the top of my head) represent a healthy chunk of total public expenditure so this would require substantial revenue raising capacities commensurate with funding these vital public services. Of course there would continue (for the foreseeable future) to be a federal UK tier of government managing other areas of policy; immigration, defence, foreign affairs, macroeconomics and there would have to be some form of redistribution between largely self-funding and semi-autonomous Regions to offset the potential for gross disparities.

2. Unitary authorities are largely performing the task of the sub-Regional tier and that process is continuing apace with traditional counties disappearing fast; Cheshire (where I live) quite recently. There is of course a debate to be had about the relative size of these sub-Regional tiers of governance.

3. In the very long term the EU plays a big role because it may be that eventually some or all of the functions performed by a federal UK tier gravitate towards a European tier of governance but that can only happen a) in the very long-term b) if the European tier assumes the mantle of democratic legitimacy (which doesn't seem likely any time soon) and c) with the consent of the people. To a large extent points 3b and 3c are linked.

4. I have stated elsewhere (several times) that I favour a Citizens' Convention approach. A meaningful conversation with the entire British people about how we want to organise (constitutionally) the UK for the next 50-100 years. Nothing would be off limits to such a process; the role and identity of the British Head of State, the voting method for electing representatives to accountable bodies weilding political power, the shape of the UK regional map (and by default, official English Regions) and finally the scope of powers wielded by each tier.

Once some form of consensus about future options had been reached, a referendum (or referenda) would be forthcoming preceded by a massive (objective) public information campaign. In the field we are discussing here, two mutually exclusive choices might be on offer:

a) An all-England political body

or

b ) An array (number and shape determined during the process referred to above) of English Regions

both of these would effectively boast the same potential competencies because they would be functioning similarly within the scope of a UK federal framework.

Of course this element of any referenda process would be offered (simultaneously) exclusively to the English sections of the UK.

5. That's a difficult one to answer precisely. One thing is for certain - some of the richer English Regions would probably benefit in the short term but in the longer term it might well be the case that the less affluent peripheral English Regions would start to catch up because they would have very different priorities; communications links (with the European mainland) for example.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Not logged in said:

Tue, 2008-07-08 13:39

Dear Mr Goodhart,

I enjoyed your piece immensely , and welcome more
intelligent analysis along these lines ; alas, I have not the time to read fellow readers comments , so please excuse if there is any repetition herewith

The noble British habit of understatement ( aka emotional repression by some Americans ) alongside a disinclination to fuel the zealots of political correctness ( which, c1992, Geoffrey Thomas pointed out does not stand up to linguistic analysis : usage of the word 'correctness' implies a standard, which itself demands a consensus of opinion - which would remove the need for PC etc ) might help explain the possible outward appearance of wearing national citizenship lightly ...

However , this might not mean that the British , for whom it was once a successful evolutionary imperative , feel their nationality lightly ( and some of whom also feel guiltless pride about the Empire ; regretting only the 80 million or so British passports
granted to colonials by Mr Atlee, according to Andrew Marr , with little or no consultation )

What hope of real integration for the 2 million or so Muslims, who presumably for a similar evolutionary imperative now choose to live and worship among us, if , as Theodore Zeldin reported : " 2/3Rd's of Brits do not trust the French" ( BBC Newsnight , March '08 ) amid our current near histrionic demands for the promised referendum on Europe ? ( " What's Europe got that we haven't ? Rabies ! " )

It could be argued that "the enfeebling effects of socialism" ( most visible against Brown's claim of " lifting 2 million children out of poverty "... straight into illiteracy / drug abuse / prostitution / suicide / knife crime ) means that the British are more unlikely than ever to willingly exchange their former proud allegiance to 'God, King, & Country' for New Labour's criminally over-priced, operationally inefficient ' Client State ', where under the disguise of 'redistribution of wealth' , morally corrupt politicians ( how dare these public servants vote against disclosing how they spend the public's money ) and lawyers get even richer ; and the dependency culture encourages unprecedented levels of crime throughout the country

Moreover, the 'top-down' idea that all foreigners moving to the UK become instant ' pot-noodle' Brits could be why many of the Island's indigenous population ( i.e. chilblains since Doomsday etc ) now describe themselves colloquially as English / Scots / Irish /
Welsh / Cornish - giving rise to the idea of further devolution - while leaving the slightly cartoon
sobriquet ' British ' for those whom they refer to off-stage, as it were, collectively - and without malice -
simply as Ethnics .

On a smaller scale , as even urban immigrants complain about the number of non-European immigrants in our cities , relatively affluent Brits who can retreat to the hills - ergo the countryside, more at ease among it's reassuring monoculture ( despite New Labour's envy-led attempt to rip the heart out of rural Britain by imposing the ban on hunting with hounds ; since when support for the sport has dramatically increased ) ; leaving the frustrated urban white working class, who perceive their own ethnicity / birthright as under threat from ethnic minorities ( now the majority
in several London boroughs ) to vote BNP , and go a-head-butting around the football fields of Europe

Yours in anticipation

The Bolter

Barry (The Elder) (not verified) said:

Fri, 2008-07-18 22:47

If I follow Peter Davidson's (PD) argument which is undoubtably for the regionalisation of England to enable the dispersment of power away from a centralised London, and that the peripheries of England will benifit from such regionalisation, well I think I have some news for PD, I have experience of a region of England (the elected one) which is the GLA, I live in the Wembley area some 16 miles away from the centre and believe you me we are treated like a periphery of the GLA with most funding going to what we call zone one, yes there have been one or two regionwide initatives such has security on the underground, which incidentally covers most of the north of the GLA, my point being most regions will be governed by a city and the rural areas will become the new periphery ( we can see this in the West Midlands) and should the Scots and Welsh gain independence then that would leave it a periphery of a region that itself would be a periphery of the EU governed from Brussells even more remote from the decision making, you see better to be a periphery in a united England ( where the people of England can make decisions ) than a periphery governed by an even more remote Parliament that has absolutley nothing in common with your needs and wishes and further more the country of England has gone, no regions are not the answer at all

The Cornish Democrat said:

Sun, 2008-07-20 08:41
Peter Davidson has suggested that current regional boundaries should be scrapped; good stuff. I too think devolution to these artificial and unloved government zones would be a very grey and uninspiring option, however a culturally homogeneous and centralised England with an English parliament also fails to inspire this Cornishman.
Taking power from the UK government and re-centralising it in either London or Bristol would totally fail to meet the democratic aspiration of the population of the Duchy and hold little justice for the Cornish identity or culture. Simply offering us a choice between an assembly for the South West government zone or an all England parliament is not acceptable.

padav said:

Sun, 2008-07-20 13:30

@Barry (The Elder)

I am confused by your comments - if we follow your argument we should ignore the opportunities and clear advantages offered by Regionalisation simply because peripheries exist even within smaller geo-political entities?

Peripheries will always exist - as soon as you create a centre you establish a periphery! Taken to ridiculous extremes your argument will always prevail because one can claim that your own desires, hopes and aspirations are being marginalised simply because you (and your household) are not at the centre of the (political) universe!

Your argument conveniently overlooks the obvious, which is the logic flowing from the effectiveness of smaller geo-polictical blocs. They work more successfully simply because they are smaller, more focussed and immediate for their respective inhabitants.

Of course there is a debate to be had about the average overall size of these entities, how they are structured and interact and the respective communities they represent. Wherever possible they should reflect historical sensitivities, precedent and legacies but this advantageous feature should not be used as a convenient smokescreen (which is habitual amongst English Nationalists) to obscure the fact that England is simply too large to function in the fashion that Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and even London do for their respective inhabitants.

Anyway, if English Nationalists want historical precedent we only need to look at the Heptarchy - circa 700 AD. If more than a thousand years of historical legacy isn't enough for you then nothing ever will be!

The sad fact is that for English Nationalists, logic and common sense goes out of the window.

England is a socio-political homogeneous entity - nothing could be further from the truth